SaharaTV interviews former Nigerian head of state and one of the founders of opposition political party , All Progressives (APC) on a wide range of issues. The interview conducted by Rudolf Okonkwo at SaharaTV touched on the General’s past, present and future . Enjoy!

Well I honestly did but I was convinced by my associates, my friends that this is about Nigeria and irrespective of the regime and the party in power, history cannot be changed and I happened to hold particular appointments by the 1998 constitution. I was a governor in the Northeast now 6 states of Yobe, Borno, Bauchi, Adamawa and Taraba. That time I was the only governor under the Murtala-Obasanjo regime, then I was a head of state for 20 months, then I was a chairman of the petroleum trust fund under Sani Abacha’s regime for 5 years. So really I was convinced that there is no way Nigerian history can be written without my name. So I accepted the invitation and I went and accepted the honor given to me by the president, Jonathan and by the country.

Q: A disconnection amongst young people.

I don’t think there is any disconnection.

Do not forget we fought a war for 30 long months and millions of Nigerians perished, which did not stop us from celebrating Republic Day. Everywhere there were parades by school children, armed forces and the police. I think…I feel it is the duty of the system we’re trying to stabilize…democracy..if we can

What a particular government decides at any particular time….the only test is people should wait for elections…or otherwise some of the government actions are

Q: On rejecting awards and honoring Sani Abacha at Nigeria’s Centenary

A lot has happened to us during the last 100 years of us as a nation and most of these things which qualify those Nigerians to be recognized have gone into our history as Nigeria within the last 100 years.

So whether a leader was found to be corrupt, whether he was tried, as in the case of the late head of state, Sani Abacha or if it were…but the beauty of our system which I had been involved in who ever gets political appointment from the Murtala-Obasanjo regime declared his assets or her assets from starting political positions and they would re-declare assets when they leave that position so all of us that were head of states, governors, deputy governors, ministers, permanent secretary at both state and fed. level and commissioners, senior members of the armed forces and the police declared their assets.

So really if Nigeria is serious about finding out which of its leaders at which level is corrupt or not its not a difficult thing.

Q : Young people wondering about rewarding corrupt leaders (what message are we passing across?):

No I don’t think so. I think it depends on the current government. This PDP govt with the Pres. Jonathan has a problem of fishing out corrupt officials and corruption has been a major problem as a nation now.

What the National Assembly did in conducting hearings on …institutions, power holding company of Nigeria, pension spending, Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation, the ministry of petroleum and its parastatals they have enough facts that indict a number of executives of the parastatals and the minister herself. So some of these more strict means on handling their constitutional rules about officers or officials from the head of state downwards to a certain level, declaring their assets when they get into office and declaring their assets when they get out of office and they are to be prosecuted for corruption and mismanagement. But….this government is very shy about finishing corrupt individuals.

Q: Boko Haram: inclusion of name on target list

I’m not responsible for my personal security but I think under the circumstances the gov has given me adequate security – physically, in my residence where I stay, when I move across with armed escorts.

I honestly do not feel upset by Boko Haram targeting me and another colleague of mine in terms of being heads of state that they will be assassinated or whatever. The (inaudible) of boko haram is not very clear now. Because, firstly I spoke against it that it is not my religion because no religion (inaudible) the innocent.

Secondly, what I know because I am a practicing Muslim ( inaudible)

You can’t send people with explosives and kill people anywhere whether it’s in the church, in the marketplace or children in school and you say, “Allahu Akhbar.” And I say it’s either you don’t know what you are saying or you don’t believe in it. That one is absolutely clear and any normal person understands it. So people are killed in churches and mosques and schools, I think they should change their name from Boko Haram to some sort of terrorist because whether you have some Western education which is Boko in Hausa or you have decent education which means reading the Quran, or you are a practicing Christian or a practicing Muslim, you don’t have the (inaudible) of taking life. So really to be scared about this threat and so on that means for one to cause problem for one’s self that might develop into high blood pressure or heart attack and so on. Because they are neither Christians nor Muslims as far as I am concerned, they are just terrorists.

Q: On Boko Haram ideology, Why now? Why Northern Nigeria?

I think that personally Nigeria has the capacity you know, to nip it in the bud, in the sense that…in my understanding is for Nigeria… to sit down with neighboring presidents of Cameroon, Chad and Niger you know, and make sure that weapons do not circulate freely.

Secondly, training facilities are not allowed because to us, our 3 neighbors are more security conscious than us. Nigeria has trained military and other law enforcement agencies. They got the (inaudible) and means. They’ve got the resources to make sure they secure this country. But unfortunately there seems to be an incredible incompetence on the part of the government to stop the insurgency both kidnapping and this mass killing of innocent people and children all over the country.

Q: On VOA quote. How did the military descend to this level?

Well your guess is as good as mine. Although unfortunately my most (inaudible) in life at least 23 or 24 years in the military. When I made that comment and compared it with what happened in Britain during Margaret Thatcher’s term at Brighton when she wanted to have a (inaudible)invasion and she was advised by the British security then that the IRA was determined to cause havoc and we were told Britain (inaudible) when Thatcher was told about it, she said it was their responsibility to protect all British citizens. And she proceeded to have…(inaudible) in Brighton. And of course they blew part of the hotel. Fortunately, it  was not the room she was staying and there was a number of casualties. And I made a comparison with what happened in Baga, I said the British security did not cordoned that area and killed all moving beings around the place and…the same thing in Baga, Bama and a number of places. So there must be a lot of restraint …initially when Boko Haram operations started…according to our internal security operations, they handed the thing to the army. The army checked house by house and they got to Yusuf, the late idol of Boko Haram. And formally handed him over according to Nigerian law to the police. But he was murdered in the police custody. And his in-law was murdered. Their house was levelled. And since then Boko Haram went berserk. Now it would appear the whole combination of Nigerian military and law enforcement agents couldn’t control that. I made that parallel example with the British-  there must be restraint on the part of the military and law enforcement agencies, there must be restraint.

Q: Doyin Okupe’s remark on military’s competence:

Well I’ve just given you one example. I don’t know who was the commander of the 2nd armored division then, when they went and arrested Yusuf. When the police handed over the operation to the army. The army went and conducted operation according to the normal internal security operations in Nigeria. They went and arrested Yusuf – the leader of Boko Haram – and handed him over to the police according to the law. The police was supposed to investigate and prosecute him. That would’ve really solved most of the problem…instead he was killed in police custody and it was extended to his family members.

This is how the military was trained…

Q: Complaints from Northerners on Govt’s negligence (and lack of sympathy from Northern leaders):

I think government is failing in its responsibilities. The fundamental responsibility of government leadership is to save lives and property. And this govt [cannot] afford it. Can you believe the law enforcement agencies are not trained enough? But why is it the government can not  do its fundamental job of preserving the lives and property of its citizens. We’re thinking of governors to come together, use their resources which should be strictly (inaudible) to their budget for infrastructure and social services to do security job? They’re spending so much money buying vehicles for the police, giving them money for fuel which is the responsibility of the central government. Really the government is being so ineffective in terms of security in this country. Security is the number one thing. If there is no security, then you can forget about the question of economy ….you can forget about having employment and goods and services. You can forget about all this.

Q: Upcoming elections APC and Presidential aspirations:

I have answered that question, maybe I didn’t answer it the way you wanted. I made a statement before the last election in 2011 that I may not present myself for election purposes again. But since then, my supporters from most of the states and in the party came and insisted that I should participate. But in the party we have just gotten (inaudible). We formed the APC. We’ve put the structure on the ground….We’ve just done registration…We’re going to move to the election of officials that will hold the party. If by the time we come to the conventional primaries and the party, APC, gives me a ticket, I will consider participating in that presidential…APC banner.

Q: Analyst are saying that the fate of APC depends on what you do. Some people said you are the most credible face and some people even in the North are saying if you run APC will be in trouble but if you don’t run the APC will be in trouble. How do you describe your role in that party and how you are seen by people across the country?

After the formation of APC what we realized from 2005 was that the opposition party, the ones that have representation in the state and national assemblies unless they come together, we have already made it to our own party system in the APC. In 2010 we had 2 committees – ACN and CPC. We had our name, logo and we drafted our constitution for re-instation but we are told by the Independent National Electoral Commission that we were too late that we need to re-instate our party 90 days before the general election. So this time around we started early enough for anybody to say that whichever way it goes, that if I stay there may be problems. if I withdraw there may be problem for the party. I think people are entitled to their opinion. But all I know is that we’re putting structure on the ground. The APC will be a party with solid structure on the ground and by the electoral act we’ll go through the processes and get our candidates from (inaudible) councillors in the local government, to chairmen of local government, to houses of assembly, to house of senate, to governors and to the presidency.

Q: There are rich people who have openly opposed your candidacy. Why is it that rich people are afraid of you?

Well I think they know better. All I know i insist on accountability and what is happening I’ve just told you about what the national assembly attempted to do to bring some order and accountability into the government but they are not making much progress. We know that all over the world we rated very low as a nation because of the corruption in our govt.  We are appealing to the western world, those [corrupt officials] who are stealing public funds and putting in their banks, they [the Western world] should help Nigeria to recover that money and we are grateful for what the United States is doing, and for what Switzerland has done and for what Britain has done in terms of  prosecuting corrupt Nigerian officials that attempted to use their countries as a conduit of misapplying and misappropriating Nigerian currencies.

Q: Recently we heard $20billion have not been accounted for by the NNPC when you hear something like this how do you react to that?

It is most unfortunate because I was watching one of the interviews by the governor of CBN and he said the NNPC hasn’t been audited for 8 years. So really, this govt that is supposed to protect the country, the constitution, the people, their resources the govt resources is woefully failing. How can this govt justify failure to audit the accounts of this country? There is no excuse for it. We have people. We have the means. This is a great disservice to the country. When the Senator conducted the hearing, the figures – the Ministry of Finance, Accounting General (inaudible), Auditor General (inaudible), NNPC and parastatals, (inaudible). And the system in Nigeria is absolutely clear, whichever goes out, you have to be accounted for, whichever comes in, will have to be accounted for. The system is there, but it’s absolutely ignored. And nobody seems to be responsible. It is free for all.

Q: 1st speech as military head. The idea of premium for power at the centre is the main cause of our problems and national conference?

In this country, if constitution is amended it is very clear, the national assembly is in charge of taking this initiative. I thought we conducted hearings for these 3 important national holding companies of Nigeria, Power Holding Company of Nigeria, the Ministry of  Petroleum Resources, NNPC and other parastatals. The National Assembly will need a change in the constitution. All they need is to get some members to work hard and produce a draft to take it to the National Assembly. The process of changing the constitution…I believe this constitution can afford N7million voted by the presidency to do extra parliamentary or National Assembly constitutional job. The National Assembly are the people who are being elected. And the constitution (inaudible) are the people who have been given the responsibility to initiate changes to the constitution. Why go against the constitution? And….afford that money to go for….(inaudible) I am personally against it because it’s wasteful and the national assembly should be made to do its job. And the Nigerian elite they should be ashamed of themselves because they should get together, get their parliamentarians and (inaudible) of the national assembly and tell them to start the processes of constitutional amendment in the National Assembly. It is very clear in our constitution
Q: Military overthrow of Shehu Shagari, impact on destabilization of country, regrets on the roles he played in trying to shape Nigeria.

I have no regrets whatsoever. And after being in detention for more than 3 years, the regime that overthrew me and detained me couldn’t find technically anything wrong with what we did. Because by time we came, 25 December 1983 to August 17, 1985, when we came in a number of states which were not paid salaries some for 9 months like Plateau states, nobody knows how much debt Nigeria owed. There was problem of security and currency was being devalued through the recommendation of IMF and World Bank. When we came, the first thing we did was to pay salaries throughout the country that were owed in various governments, state and federal. Secondly, we refused to (devalue) the Naira. Thirdly we refused to remove so-called subsidy on (inaudible) We refused to leave Saturday. We put two committees, one outside the country, one inside the country to…assess how much debt is Nigeria owing because (nobody knew) There was so much…economically. So really if Second Republic…it’d have collapsed because there was no security, the economy was broken down, there was so much (inaudible) in the society. It is the type of bad situation we are in now.

Q: Young people and his memoir

“Yes I hope to put down in writing my experiences. I certainly hope to do so.

Yes i have started to put down something in writing, but I wouldn’t like to say when it will be sent to the publishers.

Q: On his optimism

No. I think I am an optimist. This country is extremely lucky. As I said about 30 years ago, “there is no other country like Nigeria.” This country is endowed with material and human resources…the Nigerian elite has failed to organize itself and manage this country. And this is a shame on the Nigerian elite – all of us. Because as I said like this constitutional conference or whatever conference, the Nigerian elite ought to have get together, get members of the National Assembly from various constituencies and tell them… to go to the assembly and (inaudible?). Why should we take 7bn Naira to and collect….who haven’t been formally elected by Nigerians to come and start talking about what to do in the country.  Which is….National Assembly. So I believe, this country, there are enough people, how many of you are outside the country? How many doctors do we have outside the country? How many engineers of various disciplines do we have outside this country? But a lot of people forget…they will go to India, they will go to (Egypt), they will go to (inaudible)…This country can be mobilized and efficiently managed. I believe in that. This hope is keeping me going.

Q: On news headline of Buhari’s university lectures.

It depends on the institutions. If any university, whether in the South or here in the North, whether it is federal or private interest…we can meet to share my experience with them, with the students and so on. If they formally approach me, I will consider it. But I don’t go out of my way to go and ask to do such intellectual work in universities. I can say my opinion when time comes for campaign and…and so on to educated voters in trying to gain support and understanding from the Nigerian voters. But on my own I don’t go around looking for lectures in institutions. The institutions know what to do. They are highly qualified, they’re experienced and they’re very, very highly trained intellectuals on various subjects – on economy, on politics, on security and I believe…they believe they’re much more experienced…much more intellectual than myself.

Q: His legacy, how should Nigerians remember him?

In my efforts on the way Nigerians should remember me is what we’ve just mentioned earlier on. My attempt to serve in 2007 and 2011 to get elected as president of this country. A lot of people thought that I was wasting my time but I’ve gone to the tribunals and in each case I ended up in the supreme court. [I did it] because I wanted the record to be put straight that when we were trying or when Nigeria was trying to stabilize this (inaudible) party democratic system, there were people who were really (inaudible) about it and they go up to the highest court following the constitutional way of seeking redress. So that [each] Nigerian will not think that Nigerians just give up and they give up to rigging, and they didn’t do any fieldwork to go to the courts and put their cases across. So I [believe] in the system and I said it so many times elsewhere that, this opinion I formed it and we became a democracy in 1991 when the Soviet Union, as I understand it, an empire in the 20th century collapsed. That’s why I believe multiparty democracy system is the best form of governance with a big caveat that elections must be free and fair hence our struggle since then.